Saint. Sinner. Partner. Pet Mama. Cook. Gardener. Semi-Trained Church Geek. "Here I blog; I can do no other; God help me."
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Thursday, April 02, 2009
Over It
My attempt at bridge-building with supposedly new-school, sensitive-type Evangelicals over The Issue That Dare Not Speak Its Name.
11 comments:
Verdugo
said...
Sadly, it doesn't look as if the bloggers were engaging your comments at all. Your posts seem to have dropped unnoticed and unaddressed into a sea of evo-speak. Hard to have a transformative dialogue when it's entirely one-sided.
But try not to get too discouraged. The kinds of conversations you're struggling (apparently single handedly!) to have really are transformative. They transformed me. They've transformed other evangelicals known to me. One of the most compelling traits I've observed in the GLBT Christian community is an extraordinary patience with the long, painful, messy process of theological discernment-- because, as one thoughtful poster said, "we had to struggle with this too".
Walter Brueggemann has some great stuff to say about how people make paradigm shifts in their worldview. As painful and ridiculously slow and injust as it is (and it is!) I think this mode of patient, thoughtful, prayerful dialogue that I see you and so many others leading is the way to open stubborn hearts and minds to the movement of the Spirit.
Although, to put things in perspective, if you read this and related blogs, the frequent fliers don't pay really attention to women respondents of any orientation; women will post, and their comments just disappear without comment into the ether.
Verd, my role model here is the widow in the parable of the unjust judge. I figure they're going to get tired enough of me to either 1)engage in a thoughtful discussion; or 2)have me banished from the blog. My persistence can keep up with their assholic behavior.
Wow talk about talking at each and no one listening.
I also agree about women posting on that forum: they're just ignored. One reason I don't stop in anymore.
Verdugo is also right: there are those of us who change our minds. I did, which is why I am now Episcopalian. My gay priest totally changed my mind on that issue when he was the one to pastor and support me thru a very rough time last year when all of my hetero-normative church friends in the area were ignoring me.
Steve: I don't want to say anything to you as long as you are going to abuse the hospitality I extended to readers of Scott McKnight's blog in inviting readers to visit my blog.
Steve, how can I put this? You're rude. Re-read your post. You're not introducing yourself; you're pulling out your rhetorical gun and daring me to a duel at high noon. Well, that chest-bumping bluster doesn't work here. If you are serious about getting to know me and understand what my life is like -- which is what I invited readers of Scott's blog to do, if you recall -- why don't you hang out here, read my posts and read the responses of "frequent fliers." If you're not willing to do that then I'm going to assume that you're not sincere about wanting to know who I am -- that you're here to "win" a theological argument. Fair warning: I'm not engaging in that stuff with you.
My apologies if I offended you, I think you and I see the point of a blog in a little different light.
The internet, in my opinion, really is a medium designed for pugilism, but we can try courting instead.
I didn't really come here to get to know you, though. If you live in my neighborhood then we can get to know each other. I don't really do the online dating thing...
I am more interested in understanding how you make some of the decisions you have made. How you read Scripture, how you listen to the Spirit, how you understand Jesus our Lord...
...and perhaps as well, how you would advise someone in my shoes. I genuinely want to hear you. I don't want to win an argument with you. (Why should I care, you live in Timbuktu as far as I am concerned!)
I came over here to see if I could read something along those lines, and then I came across the 'have pity on us poor, oppressed women,' attitude and I couldn't help but say something! (especially seeing as how the Jesus Creed blog has regular female contributors! Come on, get over yourselves!)
So I guess what I am saying is this. I would love to have a conversation with you. I can't promise that I won't throw a few punches, but I will take yours without running away. I will apologize if I offend you. And if you can put up with my 'offensive bigotry' I will promise to put up with your self-victimization... I will call you on it, but I won't run away from it!
Your call, I will make this my last comment here, if you want me to go away. (Sorry if I posted this twice, if so you can erase the second one...)
There's nothing like the web for finding out about all those Really Unusual People out there.
I mean, a Christian whose stated main purpose in getting online is to fight; whose second theory about what this medium might be good for, if pushed, is "courting". (!)
11 comments:
Sadly, it doesn't look as if the bloggers were engaging your comments at all. Your posts seem to have dropped unnoticed and unaddressed into a sea of evo-speak. Hard to have a transformative dialogue when it's entirely one-sided.
But try not to get too discouraged. The kinds of conversations you're struggling (apparently single handedly!) to have really are transformative. They transformed me. They've transformed other evangelicals known to me. One of the most compelling traits I've observed in the GLBT Christian community is an extraordinary patience with the long, painful, messy process of theological discernment-- because, as one thoughtful poster said, "we had to struggle with this too".
Walter Brueggemann has some great stuff to say about how people make paradigm shifts in their worldview. As painful and ridiculously slow and injust as it is (and it is!) I think this mode of patient, thoughtful, prayerful dialogue that I see you and so many others leading is the way to open stubborn hearts and minds to the movement of the Spirit.
So take heart.
Dangit, why did I click the link?
And why did I read the comments?
And why did I REPLY TO ONE OF THE COMMENTS?!?!
*sigh* May God let those with ears, hear.
Although, to put things in perspective, if you read this and related blogs, the frequent fliers don't pay really attention to women respondents of any orientation; women will post, and their comments just disappear without comment into the ether.
Verd, my role model here is the widow in the parable of the unjust judge. I figure they're going to get tired enough of me to either 1)engage in a thoughtful discussion; or 2)have me banished from the blog. My persistence can keep up with their assholic behavior.
Wow talk about talking at each and no one listening.
I also agree about women posting on that forum: they're just ignored. One reason I don't stop in anymore.
Verdugo is also right: there are those of us who change our minds. I did, which is why I am now Episcopalian. My gay priest totally changed my mind on that issue when he was the one to pastor and support me thru a very rough time last year when all of my hetero-normative church friends in the area were ignoring me.
Wow!
Quite the pity party!
Okay I'll bite!
Let's talk!
What do you want to say to a bigot like me?
Steve: I don't want to say anything to you as long as you are going to abuse the hospitality I extended to readers of Scott McKnight's blog in inviting readers to visit my blog.
???
You can't really complain that people won't listen to you and then respond like that!
How am I abusing your hospitality?
Steve, how can I put this? You're rude. Re-read your post. You're not introducing yourself; you're pulling out your rhetorical gun and daring me to a duel at high noon. Well, that chest-bumping bluster doesn't work here. If you are serious about getting to know me and understand what my life is like -- which is what I invited readers of Scott's blog to do, if you recall -- why don't you hang out here, read my posts and read the responses of "frequent fliers." If you're not willing to do that then I'm going to assume that you're not sincere about wanting to know who I am -- that you're here to "win" a theological argument. Fair warning: I'm not engaging in that stuff with you.
If thats how you wanna play the game, okay...
My apologies if I offended you, I think you and I see the point of a blog in a little different light.
The internet, in my opinion, really is a medium designed for pugilism, but we can try courting instead.
I didn't really come here to get to know you, though. If you live in my neighborhood then we can get to know each other. I don't really do the online dating thing...
I am more interested in understanding how you make some of the decisions you have made. How you read Scripture, how you listen to the Spirit, how you understand Jesus our Lord...
...and perhaps as well, how you would advise someone in my shoes. I genuinely want to hear you. I don't want to win an argument with you. (Why should I care, you live in Timbuktu as far as I am concerned!)
I came over here to see if I could read something along those lines, and then I came across the 'have pity on us poor, oppressed women,' attitude and I couldn't help but say something! (especially seeing as how the Jesus Creed blog has regular female contributors! Come on, get over yourselves!)
So I guess what I am saying is this. I would love to have a conversation with you. I can't promise that I won't throw a few punches, but I will take yours without running away. I will apologize if I offend you. And if you can put up with my 'offensive bigotry' I will promise to put up with your self-victimization... I will call you on it, but I won't run away from it!
Your call, I will make this my last comment here, if you want me to go away. (Sorry if I posted this twice, if so you can erase the second one...)
There's nothing like the web for finding out about all those Really Unusual People out there.
I mean, a Christian whose stated main purpose in getting online is to fight; whose second theory about what this medium might be good for, if pushed, is "courting". (!)
Agape? Philadelphia? Anyone?
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